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A Guide to Some Ormus-Like Technologies

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last revision date: 12/31/2023

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A Short Glossary
Please bear in mind as you peruse the pages of this website the meanings of the following terms:

MEOW -- magnetite effect ormus water
MEOW device -- a device employing a mass of magnetite black sand which is used for MEOW transformation of water or other aqueous liquids. A MEOW device usually consists of a container holding a shell of magnetite with a hollow within into which a bottle of water may be inserted for treatment.
MEOW kettle -- an alternate term for a MEOW device; term is used interchangeably with the terms MEOW device or MEOW alembic.

If you wish to read more about these terms and how they came into use, please see the section entitled A Note on Boring Terms and Not-So-Boring Terms and a Short Glossary, on the main page of the OrmusWater/MEOW directory on this website.

A Brief Introductory Note 

As of late May 2007, this is a new website, created in response to a perceived need which I explore more fully in the sections below. I will be adding more subdirectories and sections to this site as time passes. At this time, the other pages or subsites to be found on this website are as follows:
  • Magnetite effect ormus water technology, aka MEOW technology.

  • Some miscellaneous notes on various ormus-related topics.

  • A brief biography of some of my involvement with various subtle energy and ormus-like realms (please also see the list of non-traditional ormus technologies below, as that section will also offer somewhat of an overview as well.)

Introduction to What I Call Ormus-Like Technologies or "Non-Traditional" or "Non-Classical" Ormus Technologies

I have, throughout much of my adult life, spent much time in researching various nooks and crannies of what I will call the field of "subtle energies", particularly in the realms of human health and especially human nutrition. However, when exploring this rich field of subtle energy phenomena and technologies, I have largely been guided by Holy Spirit to avoid what I will call the "inorganic chemistry methods" -- that is, methods which largely involve fire, distillation, acid/base reactions or strong oxidizers -- of producing nutritional supplements with subtle energy properties known as ormus effects. Rather, I have consistently been guided across the years to focus on subtle energy ormus-like nutritional supplements in the realm of what I call "non-traditional" or "non-classical" (i.e., not produced by the fire / distillation / acid/base / oxidizer methods of inorganic chemistry) ormus technologies, including those which fall in the following categories:
  • Let's start with a few biotransformation methods of ormus creation/concentration, by mentioning the syntropic antioxidative microbial (SAM) Type 4 consortia and PNSB microbes. In many ways, while not the only microbes in SAM Type 4 consortia, the PNSB microbes are the heart of SAM Type 4 cultures, and are largely responsible for its ormus-like subtle energy effects. One of the better-known commercially-available SAM Type 4 culture products is often referenced as EM. In fact, since the early 1980s, many persons (including academic researchers) who worked with EM products in Japan have sensed the powerful subtle energy properties of many EM products and first have called this property by various names such as chi or Qi, and then later, in an effort to sound more "scientific" called this property by the name "wave resonance" and later (after the bleeding-edge works of Dr. Shinichi Seike on gravity fields and gravity waves became better-known in Japan) by the name "gravity waves." Incidentally, another Japanese scientist with a very similar surname, Dr. Hideo Seki (who died around the year 2004), whose work was also focused on what he called "gravitons" and "gravitational energy" also claimed that EM products emitted copious amounts of a subtle energy that he called "graviton" energy, as has his student Masakazu Karita, a Japanese university professor who has become rather famous of late in subtle energy fields for his claims regarding magnets and subtle energy. I have worked with the PNSB and syntropic antioxidative microbe technologies since 2002, and have worked and played with Dr. Shinichi Seike's ideas of gravity fields since the late 1970s. As for the ormus or ormus-like appellation for some of the subtle energy effects of SAM Type 4 products, if my memory serves me right, there was quite a buzz on several of the ormus list groups in the early 2000s to the effect that several ormus researchers had stumbled upon EM and had become quite impressed with what they felt were its ormus properties. And then, again if my memory serves me right, within a year or two after that initial "buzz", ormus popularizer/lecturer Barry Carter and a few folks from the mainstream ormus world appear to have been some of the early adopters of the term "ormus" and "m-state" in relation to the subtle energy effects of EM, but they were hardly the only ones, and, among others, a number of West Coast ormus researchers seemed to have jumped on the same terminology bandwagon shortly thereafter. For more information on SAM Type 4 consortia and ormus-like properties, please see the SAM and Ormus page on this website!
  • I must mention here another biotransformation source of ormus-like properties and effects that I have worked with: In the late 1980s and early 1990s, I was already quite fascinated with the trace element properties and subtle energy properties of certain clays and rock dusts, including Pascalite clay and Azomite Rock dust, and I was ingesting each of them as nutritional supplements. I was guided (by inner guidance) in the late 1980s to start growing wheatgrass in soil in trays, and to add copious quantities of Azomite clay and Pascalite clay to the soil. The resultant wheatgrass, after juicing, was very powerful in its nutritional effects, and seemed to exhibit strong subtle energy and healing properties well beyond that of wheatgrass juice from wheatgrass grown on "normal" soil, and particularly much more powerful than that of wheatgrass grown hydroponically. Nowadays, we would call those powerful subtle energy effects which I noticed with the wheatgrass juice by the name "ormus" or "ormus-like" effects.
  • And here is one more biotransformation (or "biological") source of ormus-like effects, in addition to those listed above: In the early 1990s, as guided by Holy Spirit, I started investigating the powerful liquid nutritional products developed by Dr. George Merkl known variously across the years under various names, including Chondriana, Life Crystals, Sumerian Elixir, Vida Source and others. These products were all produced by microbial fermentation -- in a glass-walled "Solar Reactor" exposed to direct sunlight -- of a mixture of the juices of several fruits along with several herbs, all from plants that had been grown on rich volcanic soils, particularly sources from the volcanic regions of Central America. These products exhibited strong subtle energy effects, and by 1996 a number of ormus researchers on the old White Gold email list group had labeled these effects as ormus-like and had labeled the Life Crystals product (under its many and ever-changing names) as an ormus product. As I recall, there were many members of the early White Gold online ormus community and some other early forums and list groups who were very enthusiastic about these fermented products and their ormus properties.

  • magnetite effect ormus water, aka MEOW, which Dr. John Milewski has sometimes called "magnetic water" or "vortex water" and its ormus-like subtle energy effects. I have worked with this MEOW technology since 2006; to me, the effect was quite familiar as it seems to be very similar to field effects which I have observed over the years with various minerals, ores, gems and clays. As for the ormus or ormus-like appellation for some of the subtle energy effects of MEOW water, I believe that John Milewski and Barry Carter and a few old-school ormus researchers in the Southwest USA were some of the early adopters of the term "ormus" for these effects. For a rather complete overview of this MEOW technology, along with complete instructions on how to build your own MEOW kettles, please see the Ormuswater/MEOW website on this site.

  • the non-contact ormus-like subtle energy effects of various ores, minerals and gems on water. Some examples of this genre are the MEOW technology listed above, the laminar crystal technologies which have been marketed and popularized in the past by several persons and vendors, including Jim Carter and his Twilight products, aka Yinergy products (these were the focus of the book Holy Water, Sacred Oil The Fountain of Youth, by C. Norman Shealy, M.D.), and also marketed across the years under product names such as Twilight America, Cell Wellness Restorer, Evolion, Quest of Youth, and Starbabies. Other examples of these technologies are the ore-effects products of David Schneider (i.e., rare earth tube/pipe, Stir Wand, etc.) and others, the plethora of "orgonite" products (using particles of crystals, granite or metal suspended in epoxy resin) products on the market (i.e., the Holy Hand Grenade, etc.) which claim to have subtle energy ormus effects, and others. I have worked since the mid-1980s with subtle energy effects of various rock dusts and clays such as Azomite, Pascalite and particularly with ores rich in rare earths and transition elements; these ores/dusts are also high in ormus forms of elements as well. As for the ormus or ormus-like appellation for some of the subtle energy effects of laminar crystal products, I seem to recall that I started to see many persons in the ormus world begin to claim that these effects were ormus effects back around the year 2001. 
  • the "aetheric energy" (aka "etheric energy") technologies with which Danae of AncientTek works, including her "Sparky Water", her "etheric water gold" products and a few other products; this technology is very similar to other HV discharge technologies (and their subtle-energy effects) which have been included in this bulleted list. I have been playing with Danae's products and exploring her technology since I first became aware of her work in early 2007. Regarding the ormus or ormus-like appellation for some of the subtle energy effects of Danae's "aetherically-charged" products, I believe that Barry Carter and several ormus researchers were the first to start employing those terms for the effects of these charged products. Incidentally,  the "aetheric energy" device which Danae uses in producing the Sparky Water employs a modified "Joe Cell"; these cells -- consisting of concentric cylinders of non-ferromagnetic metals -- when properly employed, act as a subtle energy/orgone concentrator; this entire field of the subtle energy/orgone effects of certain geometric shapes and configurations is one with which I have played for many years. For more information on these technologies and products, please see the article on a page on this website which offers a brief history and background on Danae's aetheric energy charging device, along with a report on some lab tests which I ran on a sample of spent cell juice (electrolyte liquid) from the "aetheric energy battery" in the device; this will also give you a brief overview of this fascinating "aetheric energy" technology and its effects.

  • the ormus-like subtle energy effects, aka "exotic energy" effects, exhibited by some technologies, many of them high-voltage technologies, which direct a spark, corona or plasma discharge through water, space or people; this field would include some of the Rife plasma devices and some of the Tesla spark discharge devices. I have worked intensively in this field since 1974 and wrote an invited article (I was later told that it was widely considered at the time to be a definitive article on this topic; that amazed me because the editor had needed to edit it heavily to get it to fit on one page, thus accidentally eliminating much of the "meat") in 1981 for a small journal called Technology Tomorrow, published by the Future Technologies/Special Studies Division of the World Futures Society. I remain the copyright owner of the article, and, since the journal and the entire Future Technologies division are now defunct, I have posted the article, along with some of my notes about it, to a dedicated page on this website. As you may know, many persons now claim that many of the effects of some of these technologies are ormus-like effects.

  • In a vein closely related to that listed immediately above, the ormus-like subtle energy effects of various 10th+ generation cold fusion electrochemical cells, particularly those employing tungsten/titanium electrodes and KCL and lithium salts in the electrolyte; these devices have been widely cited as exhibiting all sorts of subtle-energy effects and some versions have been known to emit small ball-lightning discharges which leave the glass beaker and move about the room. A number of instantiations of these cells are very similar to the so-called Joe Cell free energy devices and also to some of the technologies used by Danae Harding in producing her sparky water. I have been working in this field since the mid-1990s. In fact, at one time, my work with the 10th+ generation cold fusion cells outgrew my one-room lab and I ended up converting part of my guest room into a lab bench dedicated only to my cold fusion cell research, the large bench was cluttered with high-current DC power supplies, gamma and neutron radiation monitors, and a number of pieces of test equipment. While the goal of most cold fusion researchers was to produce "excess energy" or "excess heat" or a high flux density of neutron radiation, my own interest in working with the cold fusion cells was not to do that at all, but rather, to try to generate the ball lightning effect and the glowing purple underwater plasma which had been widely reported by other researchers in connection with this technology. Interestingly, some friends who were psychics (i.e., very intuitive) stated at the time to report sensing some weird phenomena in that room as a result of those cold fusion cell experiments; one of these stories makes for a great tale which I will sometimes relate to fellow researchers while sitting in a pub late at night!

  • the ormus-like effects of some geometric shapes and configurations -- including pyramids, cones, concentric metallic cylinders and flat or conical spirals of wire/metallic tubing -- on animals, people and water. I have worked with these technologies since the late 1970s. A wide range of people in the ormus world seem to have been freely using the term "ormus" and "m-state" to reference many of these effects since at least the late 1990s.

  • somewhat related to the category (i.e., properties of geometric shapes such as pyramids, cones, concentric cylinders and spirals of wire) listed immediately above, the ormus-like subtle energy effects of various inter-related technologies which have often, since the late 1930s, been called "orgone" devices (i.e., the "orgone box" and the "cloudbuster".) Much as is true for the above-listed category, I have worked with these technologies since the late 1970s. A wide range of people in the ormus world and the orgone world seem to have been freely using the term "ormus" and "m-state" to reference many of these effects since at least the late 1990s.

  • the ormus-like subtle energy effects of some forms and geometries of magnetic fields upon water. I have worked in this field since the late 1970s, and a good chunk of my consulting workload for clients falls in this realm. As you are already well aware, many vendors of such magnetic products claim that their products create or isolate/amplify ormus in water.

  • the ormus-like subtle energy effects of some trace elements and nutrients (such as certain forms of vitamin B12) when treated with primitive primeval atomic hydrogen antioxidants such as those found in so-called alkaline ionized water (really better referenced as electrolyzed reduced water, or ERW) and the silica hydride products developed by Dr. Patrick Flanagan, such as MegaH. I have been working in this field since 1998; a small portion of my consulting work for clients (including several vendors of ormus products) has fallen in this realm.

  • as guided by Holy Spirit, I started sungazing in 1987 and have been a sungazer ever since. Putting aside the extreme and untrue claims made for the benefits of sungazing by several self-styled fanatical and fundamentalist sungazing gurus from India, it is entirely true that many sungazers may experience an increase in inner energy and health due to sungazing. I have learned recently that there are several websites and list groups which posit the thesis that sungazing imparts an ormus-like effect in the body, or, as some claim, that the act of sungazing produces ormus in the body; some persons in this realm have likewise claimed that exposing water to sunlight produces "solar water" and that this Solar Water exhibits ormus effects when ingested. Personally, I have never used the terms "ormus" or "ormus-like" in connection with sungazing or "solar water".

  • as guided by Holy Spirit, I have had a strong interest in trace element nutrition since the early 1980s, and in the mid and late 1980s and the early 1990s, I did a lot of work growing wheatgrass and sprouts using Azomite rock dust and small amounts of unrefined Celtic sea salt. I consistently observed that the nutritional properties and the subtle energy properties of the wheatgrass and sprouts were always much better when the sprouts were grown on soil rather than in hydroponic growers. I finally realized that the key to making many of the so-called "trace element" nutrients in Azomite available to the plants was to first make them bioavailable via microbial transformation, and I also realized that the microbes which performed this bioconversion lived on the surfaces of the roots and in the soil near the roots. I then realized that the largest difference between even the best hydroponic systems and even mediocre soil-based systems was that the latter provided a much better environment for the development and propagation of beneficial microbes which could perform the much-needed bio-transformation of "trace element" nutrients from the inorganic state to the organic state, whence they could be efficiently used by the plants. In fact, I observed that most hydroponically-grown wheatgrass and sprouts had very weak subtle energy properties, while such sprouts grow in soil along with Azomite exhibited strong subtle energy properties. This led the foundation for much of my later work with beneficial syntropic antioxidative microbes (SAM), and for my later work with ormus-like substances and effects from "living" etherically-charged sources rather than inorganic sources.

A Quick Note
Much as I have already hinted elsewhere on this page, it is precisely the non-traditional (i.e., not produced by the methods of inorganic chemistry) types of ormus-like technologies and phenomena listed above which are among those "non-traditional" technologies most often cited by "old-school" true-blue rear guard ormus aficionados as not being "really" ormus, since they were not produced/created by means of inorganic chemistry methods (i.e., fire, distillation, filtration, acid/base reactions, strong oxidizers, etc.). Two other technologies which are also frequently cited as "not real ormus" by many of the old-school rear guard ormus or White Gold diehards are these:
  • so-called ormus magnetic "vortex" devices such as blenders with magnets attached to the circumference of the blender jar

  • magnetic trap devices, aka traps, which employ magnets to reportedly isolate ormus-like elements from flowing water (i.e., tap water, etc.)
Interestingly, I must largely agree with the old-school diehards in their rejection of the first-cited instance (that is, magnetic "vortex" devices which employ blenders and magnets), albeit for profoundly different reasons than those which they would cite: While the old-school White Gold/inorganic chemistry ormus buffs would reject the "vortex" blenders on the grounds that they do not employ the methods of inorganic chemistry and classical alchemy, I do not care about the means/method used to produce the resultant water (or other liquid), and rather, what concerns me, as an intuitive as well as a scientist, is simply the effects exhibited by the water or other liquid treated in such devices. And, the reality is, speaking again as both an intuitive and a scientist, I have never been able to sense any particularly significant nor useful ormus-like subtle energies in water and other liquids and foodstuffs treated in such devices; my personal experience in ingesting liquids treated in such devices has entirely validated my intuitive sense. 

How Did Usage of these Ormus-related Terms Emerge as Descriptors for these Non-Traditional Technologies?
Before moving on, allow me to clearly and unambiguously state that while each of the above "non-traditional" phenomena, technologies or products have been labeled by many as exhibiting ormus properties or ormus-like in effects, I personally was not the first adopter (i.e., first user) of any of those terms in those realms, nor was I an early adopter (i.e., early user) of either of those terms in any of the realms listed above. Rather, my linguistic behavior in each of those realms with regard to the use of the terms ormus and/or "ormus-like" has been -- for reasons that you will see listed and explained below -- that of a linguistic conservative, and thus in each of these realms I have been a late adaptor of those "ormus" terms, i.e., a linguistic community Johnny-come-lately, and in most of those fields, I have used the terms only with reluctance, preferring -- again, for reasons which you will see enumerated below -- at most to employ the more relaxed phrase "ormus-like effects".

A Look at an Issue Regarding Terminology
There is a fascinating issue -- which I will discuss at greater length below -- that I encounter frequently due to my public involvement with many forms of "non-traditional" or "non-classical" (i.e., not produced by the fire / distillation / acid/base / oxidizer methods of inorganic chemistry) ormus effects, or, as I often prefer to call them, "ormus like-effects" or "subtle energy effects", much along the lines of those realms which I have listed above.

The Emerging Controversy of Narrow versus Broad Use of Terms Such as "Ormus"
Should terms such as "ormus" and related terms be reserved only to describe ormus produced by classical methods borrowed from inorganic chemistry such as fire, distillation, acid/base reactions and strong oxidizers?

I have been aware of the controversy in some small sectors of the ormus world regarding definition of ormus -- and the related issue of what qualifies as an ormus substance and what does not -- for a long while. Hardly a day goes by when I do not receive an angry email or phone call from a self-described "ormus researcher" or "ormus expert" trying to loudly challenge me or shout me down over their perception that I (or other persons in the ormus field) seem to have labeled one or more of the above technologies as having ormus or ormus-like subtle energy effects, a "fact" which they wish to loudly (and quite often incoherently) dispute. Indeed, a good number of these folks also include in their tirades a blanket condemnation of most "ormus" technologies employing magnets as well, including particularly magnetic trap devices and the ubiquitous blenders with magnets mounted around the circumference of the blender body, asserting that the water (or other liquids) produced by these devices is not a "real ormus product".

In fact, a few of these distressed souls (I call them Internet trolls) try to spam my related email list groups with pissy and rather incoherent emails trying to make the same point; these email submissions almost never make it to the list group, as the moderators reject them as being inappropriate (i.e., hostile, incoherent or troll-like, or all three...). It always turns out that these people would prefer to believe that the only true ormus products are those produced by the classical inorganic chemistry methods of fire, distillation, acid/base or oxidizer reactions with sea salt or rock dusts. Strangely, it always seems that the vast majority of these complainers are located in the state of Virginia in the USA or in France, or are Westerners living in Japan (or at least so the latter group claim...), and it turns out that at least 99% of these people do not have any significant credentials as practicing alchemists nor as trained scientists, and rather, I learn that they are "armchair" ormus philosophers, that is, they are NOT engaged in any real R&D work of their own in the ormus area, and rather, are casual observers. In fact, some of these people are so rabid, so incoherent and so annoying that I have prudently chosen to put them on my spam list so that I never see their latest vitriolic emails; likewise, I refuse to speak with them on the phone when they call unless they have prepaid the appropriate fee for my consulting time.

A Note Regarding My Short List of Most-Powerful Ormus-type Technologies
Incidentally, while on the topic of non-traditional or non-classical ormus technologies, I find it fascinating that when I compile a short list of all the ormus technologies which I personally find most powerful and effective in terms of both subtle consciousness effects and in terms of physical healing or age-reversal effects, almost all of the technologies/products on my list are drawn from the "non-traditional' list which I have shared above, and NOT from the realms of classical inorganic chemistry ormus technology. I am aware that many of the ormus technologies on Barry Carter's own short list of most effective and powerful ormus technologies/products are also drawn from the "non-traditional" list as well. Much the same is true of several veteran researchers in the ormus field whom I know.

My Response to the More Sincere Inquirers Regarding this Matter of Linguistics
My response to the more sane and coherent people -- often they are "old-school" researchers from what I call the classical "inorganic chemistry" realm of alchemy -- who approach me regarding with questions regarding this topic is largely as follows:

First, I remind them that even conservative "old-school" inorganic-chemistry ormus researchers and authors and lecturers, including David Hudson and many of the early inorganic chemistry ormus workers, have always stated freely that that they believed that ormus forms of elements are extremely prevalent in nature, both in inorganic forms in rock, sand, soil and seawater, and in organic forms in soil, seawater and in many plant foods including carrots and grape juice. Next, many researchers in the ormus field, and in related fields such as the realms cold transmutation, have stated freely that they felt that some beneficial microbes are able to convert ormus from inorganic forms to organic and more bioavailable forms, and also that some beneficial microbes are able to convert  metallic or ionic forms of elements into organic ormus forms.

And now, before moving on, here are one or two more thoughts to ponder regarding current definitions of the term "ormus":
When I take a look at the Definitions page on Barry Carter's ormus website, I find the following definition:
"ORME, ormus and m-state all are generic terms which apply to any normally metallic elements in a spectroscopically "invisible" non-metallic form. These terms apply regardless of which method was used to obtain them or the relative effectiveness of the element."

And, even more recently, the latest definitions (based upon conversations in May 2007 with Barry Carter and some other insiders in the ormus world) emerging from the core of the ormus research world of the term "ormus" (and "m-state" as well) seem to be even broader, and tend to define ormus as:
"...substances or subtle energies which function as a bridge between the worlds of spirit and matter". 

You may wish to bear these two definitions in mind as we proceed with our exploration...

I often respond to "classicist" inquirers that I too, until very recently, was very conservative for many years about using the term "ormus" (along with the related terms such as "ormes", "m-state" and "monoatomic") for substances/effects in the realms listed above (that is, non-traditional ormus effect categories), and instead, until rather recently, preferred to simply employ terms such as "subtle energy effects" or, at most, "ormus-like effects". This linguistic conservatism was due to several factors, as follows:
  • first, I felt that the terms "ormus", "ormes" and "m-state" had their roots almost exclusively in the genre of work popularized by David Hudson and his immediate followers in the early and mid 1990s; the focus of this work was exclusively what I tend to call the methods of "inorganic chemistry", using fire, distillation, acids, bases and/or strong oxidizers to try to produce what I call "inorganic forms" of ormus, usually from sea salt, clays or rock dusts. Thus, to me, the origins of the term lie in the realm of what I call "inorganic chemistry" forms of ormus, and I was content to allow the term to retain its original and rather narrow connotations.

  • personally, with one minor brief exception back in 1988 (when, guided by Holy Spirit, I produced a weird precipitate-type nutritional supplement in my lab from Azomite rock dust using HCL and commercial plain ammonia liquid procured from a grocery store shelf), and as I have disclosed many times in the past, I have always been strongly guided by Holy Spirit to avoid the inorganic chemistry forms of ormus, and instead to focus on the ormus-like subtle energy effects from other technologies and phenomena; a pretty comprehensive list of those "non-organic chemistry" subtle energy technologies which I have explored over the years appears above.

  • next, I have always been rather allergic to much of the writings of, by and about Hudson, as I felt (and still do) that he made a number of fundamental mis-assumptions and mis-statements across the years, many of which have unfortunately been taken as gospel by many latter-day popularizers of "inorganic chemistry" ormus. This gave me one more reason to be somewhat shy about using terms such as "ormus".

  • I feel, based upon guidance from Holy Spirit and also from tales I have heard from many of the early experimenters (many of whom I got to know from my early days in the 1990s on the old White Gold list group at, in the world of "inorganic chemistry" forms of ormus, that the inorganic forms of ormus, while probably the easiest to detect (at least to some extent) via classical inorganic chemistry tests such as fire assay or similar methods, often seem to have the harshest and most unpredictable effects upon humans if and when ingested as a nutritional supplement; witness the experiences of David Hudson's first human guinea pig; this tale is hardly unique and I have heard many more like this one. This history has given me one more reason to be cautious about using terms such as "ormus" and "m-state".

  • I have, in the years since 1995, seen a tremendous amount of hype and malarkey bandied about on the Internet regarding what I call the "inorganic chemistry" forms of ormus, particularly when it has come to marketing of ormus products for human use by some vendors. In fact, as has been recounted on my websites and on some of my ormus-related list groups, I was the key figure involved in the debunking of some blatantly fraudulent claims (including faked lab test reports showing quantities of ormus elements present) made for an ormus product in the late 1990s); in fact, the PhD biochemist (the CEO of a small nutraceutical company and the man who had initially helped to fabricate the faked lab results) who helped me to expose the fraud was shot to death in his driveway a mob-style execution a month after I published the expose on the web. These experiences have left, at times, a bit of a bad taste in my mouth associated with ormus-related terms, and thus this is one more reason why I have often been very reluctant to apply the term "ormus" to many chi (aka qi)-related subtle energy phenomena.

  • next, and this is indeed related to some points which I made earlier about David Hudson and the work of many of his successors in the realm of "inorganic chemistry" ormus, I feel that the terms "white gold" and "ormus gold" (and related terms, such as "m-state gold") have been grossly and consistently mis-used, misappropriated and misunderstood in the classical "inorganic chemistry" ormus field -- particularly by many marketers of ormus products -- and that there is a whole body of mis-assumptions here regarding "ormus gold" which traces back to some of the earliest writings and lectures of David Hudson.

  • lastly, I feel, as I have stated many times before in many venues, that subtle energy, also known by names such as prana, chi, ki, qi, orgone, etheric energy and aetheric energy, exists in a great number of degrees of emergence, or coarseness, ranging from the very subtle to the very coarse, where the very subtle or fine forms are those which are largely-etheric and where the less subtle or very coarse forms are those which are much more emergent into the physical realm. In fact, when I was in my acupuncture graduate program, most of my professors reported that the ancient Chinese acupuncturists felt that there were at least 99 levels or gradations of chi (aka qi.) I personally feel, based upon my own experience and also upon guidance from Spirit, that, for practical purposes from a human viewpoint, there are at least 300 gradations of chi or subtle energy. I further believe that while the most "fine" or subtle levels literally exhibit no material manifestation at all, many of the less-subtle levels involve manifestation of various elements in varying degrees of "emergence" or "manifestation". Thus, I believe that as a given element becomes more "manifest" at the subtle energy levels, it will exhibit rather different properties depending upon the degree of "fineness" or "coarseness" of its subtle energy level. In fact, I have noticed recently that Danae Harding of Ancient Technologies has vocalized much the same observation in some of her lectures. To me, the vast majority of the ormus products created by the means employed in classical inorganic chemistry (i.e., fire, distillation, acid/base reactions, strong oxidizers, etc.) are ormus forms which are manifested at rather coarse or "hard" levels of subtle energy, while the ormus and ormus-like forms of elements produced or yielded by the "non-traditional" means which I listed earlier are usually finer or more subtle forms of the same elements. I have, until the last few years, been very reluctant to adopt terms such as "ormus" and "m-state" or even "ormus-like" for these more subtle forms of elements/manifestation, for fear of accidentally confusing listeners or readers by inadvertently implying that these more subtle forms of elements/manifestation are identical to the more coarse forms of ormus materials often encountered using classical inorganic chemistry methods.

  • further, on a note closely related to that above, it seems to me to be very much true that the "coarse" forms of ormus are often MUCH easier to detect using classical tools of inorganic chemistry such as high-temperature burns, while it is also true that the more subtle (aka "finer") forms of many elements may be far less detectable via such means (indeed, some of the very etheric forms appear to barely show up even using UV-VIS spectrophotometry or using IR/FIR spectrophotometry or Raman or Broullion spectroscopy, and may only be detected via very sensitive measures of surface tension or pH/redox potential), and for a long time, I had preferred to reserve terms such as "ormus" and "m-state" only for the more coarse manifestations of ormus. However, in the interim, as they say in the pop culture, "reality happened" and many of the core members of the inner circle of the ormus linguistic community went ahead and adopted the use of ormus-related terminologies for the "non-traditional" phenomena/technologies which I have listed at the top of this page. And so, I eventually decided to go with the flow and to at least start referencing such subtle energy effects as "ormus-like effects", although you will notice that I often take great pains on my websites and in my list groups to differentiate these technologies from classical inorganic chemistry ormus technologies.

Some Closing Notes 
I think that we are all agreed that there will always be classical "inorganic chemistry" linguistic ultra-conservatives who feel that all these various forms of subtle energy phenomena should not be lumped together under the terms "ormus" and "m-state". And my feeling is simply one of "God bless them, too!" Because this issue emerged so persistently and so repeatedly as we approached mid-2007, I was asked by Holy Spirit in late 2007 to create this website to offer to all comers to this controversy -- both newcomers and old-timers -- a balanced and sane perspective on the matter for all time. The purpose of this website is not only give an overview of history and the issues surrounding this linguistic controversy much as I have done here, but also to serve as an informational resource regarding many of the "non-traditional" ormus-like subtle energy technologies which I listed at the beginning of this document. Among other things, I chose to migrate my ormuswater/MEOW website from its earlier location (in a directory located at my website) to a folder on this ormus-like technology dedicated website (the MEOW website, if you have not yet found it in the links bar, is located at .)

Addendum: An Interesting Dialogue on the Topic of Definition
I have a dialogue to offer to you which may help to shed even further light on the matter of definition... In late May 2007, around the same time that I had created this website, Barry Carter had forwarded a link to this page to many of his ormus list groups as one more resource in understanding the ever-evolving definition of the term "ormus". In short order, one of the more "old-school" inorganic-chemistry type ormus researchers (he produces a number of fine products in his lab) wrote to Barry (with a cc to me) in response as follows (names have been changed to protect innocent ormus researchers):


Vinny's page disclaimer on Ormus is excellent. His use of the term "Ormus-like effects" to cover various forms of subtle-energy behaviors from a variety of substances addresses the issue of definition.
He also puts the blame for the confusion squarely on the shoulders of both you and the early ORMUS researchers: "A wide range of people in the ormus world seem to have been freely using the term "ormus" and "m-state" to reference many of these effects since at least the late 1990s."

From here on out, I will no longer use the terms ORMock, ORMair, ORMwater, ORM(anything). I feel that the terms white-gold, white form of the Precious Elements, or whites better reflect the substances that I am extracting.

Since many of the forum members might actually read all the way through Vinny's page, I would like to make clear that the products I make although initially extracted using inorganic chemistry are formulated as organo-complexes for human consumption.

Also, since Vinny is listing his degrees, I have B.Sc. degrees in Organic Chemistry, Ecology, Limnology, Masters equivalent in Statistics, Masters thesis in Comparative Religion, PhD candidate in Transpersonal Psychology and Parapsychology.

Thanks for the link to Vinny's page.  --Sam

Since Sam had been kind enough to cc me on his reply, I decided to write back to him, with a cc to Barry Carter, and share my thoughts on the topic; here is my reply, sent on May 30, 2007:

Dear Sam:

[Sam and Barry: you have my permission to forward this response to any list groups as you see fit, with the exception of the Alt-cute-jenny-donkeys-bondage list group, where I am banned! :-)]

Thank you very much for the cc on your post to the WG list group. I would not otherwise have seen it, as I tend to avoid most ormus list groups for a number of reasons, all of them personal and idiosyncratic, and my personal reasons do not constitute a condemnation nor indictment of those ormus list groups!

I have just one quick response to your comments below, and, rather than insert it interlined below, I will simply reproduce the relevant paragraph from your post here, wherein you wrote to Barry:
"He also puts the blame for the confusion squarely on the shoulders of both you and the early ORMUS researchers: "A wide range of people in the ormus world seem to have been freely using the term "ormus" and "m-state" to reference many of these effects since at least the late 1990s.""

Well, I suspect, as you are likely well aware, that your own personal biases may have kinda crept in here when you wrote "He puts the blame for the confusion on both you and the early ORMUS researchers..." First, I was assigning no blame. And, as for "confusion", well, some degree of confusion is normal and natural when a term is not strictly defined by an authority and when rather it is evolving naturally! What I was doing on that page was making somewhat of an attempt to provide a chronological history of how many of these non-traditional or "non-inorganic chemistry" technologies came to be subsumed under the rubric of "ormus". Next, as you know, since the ormus field is not a controlled field, i.e., it is neither a part of the National Academy of Sciences nor other standards-setting institutions which tend to formalize definitions in some areas of the sciences, nor does the ormus field, given that it is very young and still kinda in its Dark Ages, to paraphrase Antoine Dubuc, have its own formal governing body or bodies which are the equivalents of the National Academy of Sciences and its sister institutions, nor do we have a published and standardized book such as Dictionary and Encyclopedia of Terms of Ormus, and thus there is no formal definition of ormus. Rather, ormus and the related terms have been subject to the normal organic rules describing behaviors of linguistic communities, whether they be high school cliques, the regular crowd at the neighborhood pub or the insiders in the field of conventional hot fusion physics, and thus the term (and its sister terms) have thus organically evolved over the years, largely defined and redefined the inner core of intimate (inner circle) members of the ormus linguistic community.

And, yes, Barry Carter, along with some of the old-school inorganic chem traditionalists who populated the old WG list group of the 1990s, is obviously a member of the inner core circle of the ormus linguistic community. That hardly means that he or the other core members are to "blame" for the evolution of the definition of the term, and rather, any linguist, anthropologist or sociologist would reassure us that such informal and organic evolution of the term is natural and normal, and common to any community. Of course, if one disapproves of the general direction being taken by the core or inner circles of the ormus linguistic community, and particularly if one disapproves of the latest definition of the term "ormus", then yes, one might be quite tempted to use the term "blame" in this context.

For me, personally speaking, I am not here on this Earth to try to redefine the current and extant meaning of "ormus" within the core ormus community, which definition -- as I iterated on my website -- seems to currently be something along the lines of:
"ormus -- elemental substances or subtle energies (or both) which function as a bridge between the worlds of spirit and matter."

Quite obviously, I did not develop nor invent that consensus definition, and I had little or no part in its evolution, since, for my own personal and idiosyncratic and cranky and curmudgeonly reasons, I largely avoid stepping into the "mainstream" circles of the ormus community and have done so for a great many years. Likewise, much as you have noted from reading my website, I am a bit conservative linguistically, in addition to being cranky and curmudgeonly (and aside from sleeping with jenny donkeys), and thus, despite the fact that the vast majority of persons in the ormus community would nowadays label each of the "non-traditional" technologies which I listed as "ormus" or "m-state", I still feel more comfortable referencing the phenomena and the effects as "ormus-like". However, in doing so, I am not trying to redefine the term "ormus" for the ormus community, nor am I trying to set a precedent for others, and rather, I am simply expressing or displaying my own particular nexus of odd prejudices and biases, as does any good performance artist, for ultimately, I am most comfortable most of the time calling most of these non-traditional phenomena by the name "ormus-like". And yet, I am a realist: I fully recognize and accept that most other members of the ormus linguistic community would skip the "-like" part when referencing these same phenomena, and would instead simply call them by the name "ormus".

with care,

I hope that my sharing this dialogue may have helped to muddle the waters a bit further, I mean, to clear up the issue a bit more! Enjoy!

Vinny is a multi-disciplinary scientist and engineer with extensive experience plus undergraduate-level training in electrical engineering and physics, and with a graduate degree (Master's) in the sciences. However, he is also, first and foremost, a mystic and a spiritual healer and spiritual guide/teacher. He lives his life in surrender to Divinity, and has been given a Divine gift wherein he serves as a window for Divine love and grace into this world. At the request of Divinity, Vinny has created a webpage on his spiritual healing website that gives page visitors a chance to receive, free-of-charge, some of the flow of Divine love and grace. You are welcome to visit this page at

And Now, a Note on the Elixir Vitae
And, if you are perhaps interested in something totally beyond ormus and ormus-like effects by many orders of magnitude, then you may wish to visit my website on the alchemical product known as Elixir Vitae, an exotic alchemical substance which has been known since antiquity as the Elixir of Life, Elixir of Immortality, Philosopher's Stone of Immortality and the Universal Medicine, and by a dozen other names as well.

An Email List Group of Interest

The Forbidden Science (VP) group hosted at encompasses and subsumes topics covered by each of the several relevant legacy list groups that I had operated at private Yahoo Groups, including Exotic Energies, Ormus-like, Ormus PWT, Time-Space Doorways, Elixir Vitae, Jenny Cell, Radiation Hormesis/Radiation Nutrition, and Quantum Quiet (space effect devices) legacy list groups.

Forbidden Science (VP)
The term "forbidden science" was first coined in the 1980s by Dr. Jaques Vallee, a PhD computer scientist and strange/fringe science researcher, to describe those fields of scientific investigation that the current scientific "establishment" tends to view as quack science, or as fringe science, and as undesirable topics for "serious" scientists to research; those fields include the topic of UFOs and "space aliens", alchemy, ormus nutritionals, the paranormal, overunity devices, exotic energies (aka prana or chi) beyond the pale of conventional electromagnetics, and numerous other "fringe science" and "strange science" realms.

This list group serves as a continuation of the various legacy forbidden science list groups, listed above, that were operated by Vinny Pinto for 15+ years until the October 2019 downscaling of Yahoo Groups. Vinny is a mystic, spiritual teacher/guide, spiritual healer, and a multi-disciplinary consulting and R&D scientist/engineer.

The primary focus of this list group is to discuss topics in the realms of forbidden science, aka strange science, aka fringe science, including UFOs and "space aliens", alchemy, ormus nutritionals, the paranormal, overunity devices, exotic energies (aka prana or chi) beyond the pale of conventional electromagnetics, and numerous other "fringe science" and "strange science" realms.

While the name and description of this list group are publicly listed at and on search engines, all posts sent to the list group are private and are viewable by list group members only. This is a moderated list group. Further, all applicants wishing to join the list group must state their reasons for wishing to join along with their name and general location, and all posts sent to the list group must be signed with the poster's first and last name in order to be published. We do not tolerate hate posts, and we do not tolerate trolls, nor troll posts.

How to Join
If you are interested in joining this list group, you may do so by visiting the list group home page and clicking "Join" at:

Or you may send an email to:

Please note that the list group, as is true of all of my email list groups, are restricted-membership list groups, and thus, once you have applied to join, you will then shortly receive an email from the mailserver, entitled something along the lines of "Your Pending Membership in….", which will ask you for certain information; you will need to send the requested information (including your first and last name) back to the list group moderators by replying to the message if you wish your application for membership to be approved.


Some Background

I am a degreed scientist, with a graduate degree (a Master's degree) in the health-related sciences, and a mystic. If you wish to learn more about my background and about my involvement with ormus-like substances and their use as nutritional supplements, please see the Background-Ormus & Me page on this site; it also offers links to further off-site information on my background and my scientific R&D and consulting work.

Some Thoughts From a Mystic and Intuitive on the Perceived Dangers of the CERN LHC

Due to his having received a number of requests asking for his insights as a deep intuitive on the claims that operation of the CERN Linear Hadron Collider (LHC) could lead to the destruction of the earth or of the entire universe, Vinny has written a very short article offering his view as an intuitive on this matter. To see the article, please visit the page, entitled Some Thoughts from a Mystic and Intuitive on the Perceived Dangers of the CERN LHC Collider Project.


This material is offered solely for educational and informational purposes. Any products and/or information presented are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA (in USA.) 

Any products, technologies or devices mentioned on this page are experimental prototypes only, produced for the sole purposes of research and Proof of Principle (PoP) evaluation by professional or individual researchers or experimenters. The reader understands that the author is not engaged in rendering health or medical advice or services.  The site owner and authors provide this information, and the reader accepts it, with the understanding that people act on it at their own risk and with full knowledge that they should consult with licensed primary care medical professionals for any medical assistance they may need.  The author(s) of the material presented on this site are neither medical nor nutritional professionals. 

If you wish to learn more about my work and/or about my consulting services, please feel free to visit my main website at

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